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The Iron Bible

Interview With The Creator

 Prior to the opening of the special exhibition, an interview was conducted between the two creators on the theme of their newly drawn works.

 Date: Tuesday, October 13, 2020

 Venue: Takara Tomy Headquarters

 Participants: Mitsutoshi Tokuyama, Guest: Yuji Kaida

 Moderator: Hideyuki Kaneko

 Coordinator / GoFa: Mochitoshi Isono

Profile  Concept Artist Mitsutoshi Tokuyama  Concept Artist born on July 6th, 1957  He's one of the founders of Zoids. He proposed the idea of creating a Zoids series in an in-house idea contest and won a prize, and since then, he's created the world view of Zoids based on the idea of mechanical life forms. He's been involved with the base concepts for the 2018 Zoids Wild series.

Profile  Guest Artist Yuji Kaida  An illustrator born on March 26th, 1953  A leading figure in SF art, he's worked on numerous illustrations for magazines, book covers and box arts, focusing on character illustrations of special effects monsters and robots. He's also known as the "Kaiju Artist." He's a member of the Science Fiction Writers' of Japan club.

Taking On Zoids

 Isono: Today, as part of the Zoids Concept Art Exhibition project, we'd like to hold an interview with one of the creators of Zoids, Takara Tomy's own Tokuyama Mitsutoshi, and illustrator Yuji Kaida. Kaneko, who's in charge of the catalog, will be facilitating this discussion.



 — Today's the first conversation between these two legends. Here are two original works drawn for the exhibition. I'd like to ask what your thoughts were when you took on this project.

 Tokuyama: First, let me explain about the Burning Liger. The second season of the anime (Zoids Wild Zero) has ended and a new series of Zoids is about to begin*. This is one of the first lion-types of the Empire. Until now, lion-types were the main unit of the Republic, which valued coexistence with Zoids. I helped with the basic designs up until the second season of the anime. The new series was completed by a young, up-and-coming designer. This was my first time seriously drawing the Burning Liger. This was also Kaida's first attempt, so I wondered how he would draw it. As soon as I saw it, I was overwhelmed by all the characteristics that'd been set for the Burning Liger.

 Burning, of course, as in a burning blaze. The color of the unit is a scorching red, which is rare for lion-types. And as soon as you see it, it's clear that the theme is red. Its characteristic is the incredible power of its claws. The young designer who designed this said that the most important aspect was the claws, and naturally Kaida's drawing of it also emphasizes that point. That and the gatling gun on its back. The basic concept is that it uses the power of the Zoid Core to power the gun. Kaida's work already has all three points (red, claws, and gun) and I'm really grateful and impressed.



 — I guess you could say the picture beautifully hits the nail on the head then. What about you, Kaida?

 Kaida: He said everything I wanted to say... (laughs). This is the first time that I've drawn a Zoids illustration in a long while. I thought it'd be a simple and easy-to-understand character concept, with a red lion's flaming mane and a powerful weapon on its back. So it wasn't just an illustration to show off the red, ferocious looking exterior, but also the still-lingering excitement of battle and its burning heart. Not just a composition showing the coming attack, but also one that showed the pressure being exerted by the character even as it walked. For the background I drew a crater on the verge of erupting and thought that if I superimposed images of a burning earth that it'd convey those sentiments well.

 I was surprised how much more complex it was compared to when I was always drawing for Zoids Delusional War Record (*1). The head is where the character's personality really gets conveyed, so I drew it was faithfully as possible to the Burning Liger model I used as a reference, but made the arms more biological to make them look more like a bio machine. I came up with various ideas, such as how the claws would look on a natural creature, and how they should be sharper.

 Just as Tokuyama said, the claws are an important weapon, so I decided on a composition that made them stand out. The gatling gun is not just something he carries on his back, but is used as a living weapon, so I intentionally pointed the muzzle in a different direction to give it a more dynamic presence in the picture.

 Tokuyama: Another point is that the gatling gun can rotate and change direction even when it's actually moving (as a toy). That's quite an accurate point, and I think it's a very dynamic image.

 Kaida: When I received the sample and took it out of the box, it turned on by itself, and I watched it move for a while, thinking that if the toy can move that much, it needed to have a more dynamic atmosphere in the picture.



 — I've heard that the canvas for box art is usually drawn horizontally. What kind of experience did you have when trying to draw it vertically?

 Kaida: There's a lot of things to consider, but when drawing something for a box you have to be careful about the free space because there's going to be lettering and such. Also, since it's a product package, it's difficult to convey what's inside through the picture alone.

 I try to make the whole silhouette as visible as possible. After all, it's a four-legged animal, so it's easier to draw it horizontally, and it's really difficult when a vertical box is specified. But I think you can tell that the whole model is a lion, even with it being vertical, so I think it'll be okay. When you try to draw something from space that doesn't have a model, or a mech that has nothing to do with animals that humans know, it can be a problem figuring out if it should be drawn vertically or horizontally.

 Tokuyama: I was really surprised that Zoids boxes were mostly horizontal. The composition that Kaida drew this time was quite fresh, and the Impact Gatling Gun on its back was placed so beautifully when I saw it. I felt that it was only possible because of the Burning Liger.

 Kaida: It's carrying such a large object on its back. It's also quite fun to draw a gatling gun. It takes a lot of time, though. I had fun drawing it in the end. Such a powerful weapon is attractive in and of itself.

 It's more fun to draw a weapon with a physical impact than a rifle that shoots a beam or some other vague ammo.

Reflecting On The World View

 — In the pre-meeting, Kaida, you first focused on the Gatling Gun. I thought the picture would focus on that. In this work, you actually blurred it slightly. On the contrary, you put the claws in the foreground and highlighted them, with the light adjusted to draw the eyes upwards.

 Kaida: When I looked at the rough draft, I thought the character didn't look very big. I thought it'd look like it was about the size of a normal lion. So I tried to include the legs, head, torso, and tail in a vertical composition, and to some extend express a sense of perspective in the picture. Also, the body is red, but only the gatling gun is metallic, so if I drew it like this, it'd become a separate object. So I drew the Gatling Gun in red to make it blend with the rest of the world, while also keeping in mind the sense of scale of the gatling gun being in the background while we went from rough draft to final product.



 — I see. Kaida, what did you think of Tokuyama's drawing?

 Kaida: It feels like he freely drew what was in his hands. The dynamic look and boldness of the movements come from his thorough knowledge of Zoids. When I have a client's product in front of me I tend to be reserved... and feel like I shouldn't try anything too reckless. On the other hand, when I was drawing for Zoids Delusional War Record, I thought I could take advantage of the fact that I didn't know anything about it and have more freedom.

 This time, I wanted to immerse myself in the world of Zoids itself, so my drawing was actually a little conservative. As expected, Tokuyama's looks free. It feels like a drawing done by someone who knows Zoids inside and out.

 Tokuyama: Being an employee is a privilege in a way. (laughs)

 Kaida: I received the finished kit and drew it as a package art. But I moved it as I wanted, like, this part should be like this, and this part should definitely move like this.

 Tokuyama: When Kaida drew Delusional War Record (*2), the composition was bold, and quite unusual.

 Kaida: Because I didn't know anything about the world of Zoids. These kinds of mechanical lifeforms exist on an unknown planet, and they form their own world. So I thought that if there was someone like an animal photographer who took photos of the ecology of Zoids and published something like a Zoids photo book, they'd probably take a photo with a composition like this.

 So I focused on the ecology of the animals that were the base models for Zoids. For example, for the gorilla, I drew it standing up and drumming. In reality, you wouldn't show the belly because that's where the battery compartment is, but I thought it'd be more interesting that way, so I drew it in that pose... They didn't complain, so I figured it was fine. (laughs)

 Tokuyama: It's a "Delusional" War Record, after all. (laughs) Normally, Zoids products are photographed in a diorama world. This Delusional War Record story became a Zoids model series of its own, and the color changes and other things that would've been quite common for a product package became so much more dynamic by having Kaida draw them.

 I remember that there were many pictures that really seemed to capture a moment in the world of living things.

 Kaida: (Showing a picture) This is the one I like best.

 Tokuyama: That's a Death Stinger.

 Kaida: It's a scene featuring a huge creature in a seaside-esque location. It was more intuitive than the first thing I came up with. I thought it'd be interesting to combine the ideas after looking at some photos I took of the sea.

 Tokuyama: Also, the Green Horn, a styracosaurus, looks like you're looking up at it, giving the picture a sense of enormity and a wonderful sense of scale.

 Kaida: This (the Burning Liger art) wasn't actually going to be a product package for a kit, so I didn't think it was necessary to show the full shape. With a plastic model, you have to draw it in a way that the box art gives you a clear idea of what's inside and what it'll look like when assembled. In this case, it's a product for enthusiasts and a limited number of users, so I figured it'd be okay to draw it with an image that expands on the world of Zoids. That was a lot of fun. It's not often that you're allowed to have this much freedom with a strict mechanical package.

 Tokuyama: As Kaida said earlier, when I draw concept art for Zoids, in the past I used to create the world using dioramas. The world of a diorama is seen from the perspective of god. Also, as Kaida mentioned, since it's a toy action scene, I drew the concept art as if I were there taking pictures with a camera.

 This time, the main character, Burning Liger, was drawn with a strong presence, so in my case, I drew it from a different angle, with the invincible life form, Zero Grizis behind it. As an amateur I thought it'd be nice to create a composition that contrasted with it, and the Zero Phantos' here, and I also thought it'd be neat to depict the moment right before the battle is about to begin.



 — Was it your intention from the beginning to have the Grizis Core (*3) aimed at the viewer?

 Tokuyama: Yes. I'd seen Kaida's rough draft earlier, so I thought I'd draw it from a slightly different perspective, the moment the battle is about to begin. On Earth, Zoids attack by baring their fangs and exposing weapons from within their bodies. The Zero Grizis' greatest weapon is its Grizis Core. Its ribs open. This moment was also a rather unusual angle. In addition, the background color is purple (in both). (laughs) I think that's probably to contrast with the red.



 — When I first saw the Burning Liger, I assumed it'd be difficult to create the image because of the metal body with the red. Looking at it today, it's amazing how they've both managed to bring it together in their own ways, and even have that purple background in common.

 Kaida: With images where the 'color' of the character is clear, there's two ways to go about it: one where you suppress the red in the background as much as possible, so that the red character pops out, or one where you draw it so that it blends into the image as if that red is dominating the world. This time I took it in the latter direction. So basically, red is the main character. Red alone, however, doesn't stand out, so I tried to use different colors in the distance and closer to the sky to give the picture more volume and richness.

 In Tokuyama's image the red stands out, and the color scheme creates a sense of tension, like the loneliness felt when you approach something so huge. It's a completely different approach from mine.

 When you draw a three-dimensional object realistically, it's surprisingly difficult to bring out the difference between light and dark red, and it ends up looking flat. That's quite difficult to work with. This time, I was conscious of using colors that would blend the red with other colors, so I think it turned out pretty well.



 — What do you think, Tokuyama?

 Tokuyama: In terms of the setting, the Zero Grizis in the background has a purple aura. That's why it's part of the background. I came up with the composition of the Zero Grizis first. What I found difficult was that lions have proportions close to tigers, so I looked at old Kano tiger paintings (*4). It still felt like an impossible composition, though. There wasn't much reference material for it in terms of animal ecology. Also, since it was concept art, there weren't many vertical pictures. That in and of itself was quite a challenge.



 — The purple gives it a sense of premonition, foreboding, and awe.

 Kaida: It's good that you can imagine various dramas playing out. I like pictures that have a story to tell.

 Tokuyama: That's why I also like the box art that Kaida draws. Old plastic models and foreign products are often drawn with pictures. I could imagine a battlefield scene or something like that about to play out, so I feel that box art represents the moment that you become interested in the world of the product, so I drew it hoping to capture such a moment.

Notes

 (*1) New Series: Zoids Wild Senki, streaming from Takara Tomy's Youtube channel starting from October 2020. It depicts the world beyond the second season of the TV anime Zoids Wild ZERO.

 (*2) Zoids Delusional War Record: Limited products centered on original stories and the units that appeared in the Zoids web comic series. The box art for the packages were drawn by Yuji Kaida. (Limited sales from 2001 ~ 2003. Tomy Co., Ltd. (Now Takara Tomy))

 (*3) Grizis Core: The Zero Grizis's ultimate weapon, it converts the Zoid Factor drawn in through its mouth into energy and releases it by exposing the ribs.



 

Drawing A Mechanical Lifeforms

 — What was the most difficult part to express?

 Tokuyama: As I said earlier, Burning Liger is the original main character of the new series, and it was created by a young designer, so it was the first time I had drawn it. In that respect, it was very difficult. Also, unlike the actual toy, in the picture, I drew a pose where the upper and lower body can move freely. Since the toys have solid pieces, I drew them freely. That's why I think there might be some animation elements in there.



 — The Wild Zero anime also has CG where machines move like animals.

 Tokuyama: Zoids emphasize the animal-like aspects. CG technology has also improved considerably. From the second season of the anime, more CG was introduced and the data library was updated. Unlike past Zoids series, I think they're now able to perform more wild actions.



 — What were the difficulties you faced in creating your drawing, Kaida?

 Kaida: It takes time to draw a machine. You draw the first line drawing carefully and then you start coloring it. The first line drawing stage takes up about three-quarters of the entire schedule. I had a hard time at that stage. This time, I was able to see the real product, which was helpful, but if I try to draw the parts carefully, I get stuck in a quagmire of drawing hell. I feel like I have to avoid that and trust my eyes. Inevitably, there will be some distortion compared to the exact shape, but on the other hand, the distortion adds power to the picture. There are many parts that I drew relying on my own senses.

 Also, the rough sketch originally didn't have a tail. I thought it would be better to include it though, so I drew just a bit of it. At that point I realized it's quite difficult to draw a tail precisely. Tokuyama drew it so well that I felt a little bad, but I still thought an animal's tail was important, so I had to draw it at the end.

 I have a cat at home, and a cat's tail has a big presence. The tail, it's like a different creature that lives symbiotically with the cat so I thought I had to draw it because it conveys that sort of presence.

 Tokuyama: Actually, I have a cat too. Unlike dogs, cats will surprisingly stay next to you when you're doing something. So cat movements and the like were a great reference for me, and just adding the tail in Kaida's picture gives the whole image more depth. Cats have a fairly compact body, but they're long. I think it's a great balance because it brings out those characteristics.

 — Did you both have an intention behind not drawing both eyes?

 Kaida: When you look at it from an angle where you can see both eyes facing forward, it's difficult because it gets harder for you to see the lion-esque shape of the face. I think it's good to draw these kinds of wild beasts with both eyes showing, as if they're locked on to their prey, but if you shift them a little, you can see the flow that connects to the lion's mane.

 Tokuyama: I was aiming for a look of it glaring. It's intimidating and tense, with a powerful gaze. In my case, I moved it around quite a bit, and for the actual product, there's a space on the back for it to slide the Impact Gatling in, so the mane ends up a little short. It's a bit of a trick, but I drew the mane with a dynamic flow. I gave up on the idea of drawing it facing forward like Kaida did. (laughs)



 

Stimulating The Imagination

 — Do you have any questions from a professional perspective?

 Kaida: This is a very simple question, but all the Zoids series have these (rubber caps), right? I think they used to have more serrations, but was this always the intention from the beginning?

 Tokuyama: The predecessor to the Zoids series was Mechabonica. I was in charge of it when I joined the company in 1981. These rubber caps have been there since then, and to us, it's a key point of Zoids' identity. As Kaida says, this is what makes it a Zoid.

 Kaida: That's right. There've been countless animal-shaped robots up until now. I think this is what makes them Zoids-like. But it's really hard to draw. In Senki, they all had serrations, and I made line drawings of the parts at various angles, and then I chose and drew them to fit them.

 Tokuyama: In the past, the side that was most symbiotic with Zoids (the Republic) had mechanical caps looking like gears, while the non-symbiotic side, the Empire had smooth, armor-like caps. We've followed that same approach this time. As Kaida said earlier, the current Zoids are slightly more animal-like, and the details are quite fine.



 — Did the cap part pose any constraints when you were making them?

 Tokuyama: They're basically for the walking actions. As Kaida said, Zoids are based on animals. Then we simplify things. The joints and power shafts are parts that need to be fastened together, so it's actually quite convenient.



 — So it makes sense from the production side as well.

 Tokuyama: That's right. The biggest factor is that they can be removed, so the whole thing can be assembled and disassembled.



 — Earlier, Kaida said that when doing his drawing, it was necessary to have some explanation before opening the box. What do you think are the key points in pictures that stimulate children's imaginations?

 Kaida: When I was a child, there were no such amazing, high-performance toys. I would pick up scraps of wood from a construction site, just a square block of wood, stick a nail into it, and imagine that it was actually a walkie-talkie. I enjoyed stretching my imagination as much as I could. For example, a toy gun was just a piece of tin glued together, and it was shaped like a magazine, but didn't turn at all, and the trigger only just barely moved. But when I saw it, I'd think, "This gun actually turns like this," or "This part moves like this," and I'd play with it, expanding my imagination beyond the function of the toy. That was fun. I'd just line up everyday objects and imagine that they were a huge enemy weapons factory, or that a monster was going to attack it. That's what I played with. I wanted to give a glimpse of the power of imagination that can expand beyond the product inside the box, through the packaging itself. Most plastic models are just assembled with moving joints, but this is a product that users can expand and enjoy by building a diorama, making ones where the robot is half broken, and expanding their imagination. It's not just an assembly product, but something inside that can trigger one's imagination, so I try to draw the package as an example of what it could be.

The two chatting about their creations.

 So, for example, if it's an anime character, I don't just draw the robot as a cool anime character, but I draw the package with the idea that it can trigger something for the imagination to build off of, such as the world it lives in, the situation in which it is active, or the various stories of the unit to which the pilot belongs. So, I draw the main body as well, but I draw it while thinking about the background, world, situation, how it is placed, how the light hits it, and things that will liven up the drama. The main body itself is a product, so I think it has to be drawn properly, but how to shine light on it and how to add surrounding circumstances are within my scope, so I'm quite selfish in that regard.



 — Do you ever disagree with the client?

 Kaida: No, that doesn't happen. However, even if I'm happy with the design, I do sometimes think it's a little too plain when displayed next to other products in the store. I do feel bad for the manufacturer about that. (laughs)

 Tokuyama: (In the store) They're not one piece, but lined up, so I think that's where the difference comes in. The manufacturer also has a responsibility. When we release Zoids products, we line them up. Line them up to see if maybe the color tones are a bit different or... I think that experimenting with how they look when displayed is very important.

 Kaida: Even in the world of children, there's a lot of media, and you can get images from various sources, not just the TV but also smart phones. Product packaging had a special presence in our time. The picture that was drawn when you held it in your hand was the first introduction that children had to the world via that painting. Old military plastic models were drawn by our seniors who were quite skilled, and just seeing the pictures always made me excited. I want it to encapsulate the excitement of holding a product with a picture on it, the feeling of going to the store, buying it, and opening it on the train because you can't resist, so I keep that in mind.

The Creation of Zoids

 — Tokuyama, you're one of the creators and the creator of the Zoids world, but what was the situation like at the very beginning?

 Tokuyama: When I joined the company, they were non-glue action kits with rubber caps and a spring. Naturally, they weren't called Zoids, and I was put in charge of them by chance. Also, I lived near the Ueno Zoo and museum, and I've always loved dinosaurs, so I immediately thought I'd develop a dinosaur series with this. That's why Zoids can be disassembled and reassembled with the rubber caps. When I look at dinosaur encyclopedias, the most exciting thing is seeing a Tyrannosaurus fighting a Triceratops, and old dinosaur encyclopedias are so dynamic and exciting. When I think back, even as a child, I wondered which one was the strongest...it was all a world of fantasy. At that time, there were a lot of pictorial encyclopedias. Of course, I also liked the box art of plastic models.



 — That was when the Tyrannosaurus was still standing upright.

 Tokuyama: That's right. A lot of Zoids were standing upright, too. The excitement I felt when I saw them as a child was at the root of Zoids. And if Zoids had their rubber caps as an identifier, they'd be distinguishable from products made by competitors.



 — What do you think is the appeal of Zoids from an outside perspective?

 Kaida: Wild animals and dinosaurs, the old-fashioned image of dinosaurs. A world ruled by force, where it's eat or be eaten. I get excited about that, and on top of that, as a child I also loved the fascinating mechanical structure. It's like a child's dream of armed forces and weapons, and huge ships and cannons, and all of those elements come together, so it's impossible not to be interested, and it's like, how unfair it is to have all the best parts. (laughs)

The interview session.

 Also, they're so large and have the interesting monster qualities, but they can also be used by humans and have a relationship with humans, a connection of the heart. There's also elements that can lead to stories of friendship, of souls, and I think it's really the ultimate in boys' dramas. And because the setting is a different world that's not bound to the society we live in, you can think outside the box. It's very fun to have a world that allows for the freedom to fantasize freely. It's interesting, and there are parts that are exciting even for adults.

 There've been many animal-type robot animes and mangas up until now, but the best thing about this is the ingenuity of the design, which is packed with so much detail and makes the most of the original animal's expression and charm. I think it's wonderful. It's hard to draw, though. (laughs) This time in particular, I felt that there were more lines than when I drew them in the past, and it gave me a great sense of accomplishment.



 — When you look at Zoids, there's actually no good or evil. I feel that the story has a deep structure that changes depending on how humans interact with them.

 Tokuyama: Zoids are mechanical lifeforms, so you can get close to them. You can make changes, but after all, the fighting instinct of animals is something that you can't control. It's not related to the product, but I think that's an important point when daydreaming about them. In fact, the feeling that the design gives off has changed depending on whether the position is to coexist with Zoids or not approve of Zoids and treat them as weapons instead. The anime Zoids Wild places great importance on this. The sense of unity between Zoids and their users is an inheritance from past Zoids series.



 — Kaida, I heard that you're bringing the world of 'boy mode' onto the screen. Does it mean that you yourself are going back to being an elementary school student as you draw, or are you more objective?
(* Boy mode referring to a shounen / young boy's style)

 Kaida: It's not like I'm going back, it's just a continuation of that for me. I use the term boy mode more for convenience, but nowadays, it's normal for girls to love this kind of world of machines or heavy industrial products.

 I've recently come to think that the world has become one where gender differences are irrelevant. Conversely, there are plenty of boys who love dolls.

 Tokuyama: I think that maybe with Zoids there's a sense of exposed mechanics, and that's what makes them feel fresh. There was a time when action toys were everywhere, and I thought that even if we made them ourselves, they wouldn't stand out, but with toys these days, all the machinery and functions are inside. In that sense, I think there's many women who want to assemble these mechanical things and make them move with a sense of accomplishment.

 Kaida: Recently in the world of real robots, the surface has inevitably been made to look smooth and pretty. I love more rugged ones with exposed mechanisms. With Zoids, that kind of fun is on full display. You can also add exterior parts to make the silhouettes of the animals come alive. That's one way of doing things. I think the charm of Zoids is that it dares to remove those exterior parts and only show the internal mechanisms, while still maintaining a solid silhouette.

 Tokuyama: Zoids places importance on universal themes. One is dinosaurs. Dinosaurs aren't actually alive anymore. You can't see them moving. So we bring them to life. When we all created Zoids, there weren't many CG dinosaurs, and we studied their scale and massive skeletons at the Dinosaur Expo. Recently, the ecology of dinosaurs has been elucidated through computer graphics, and you can actually see them moving. I think that's become more difficult. So I'm always looking for another action that reflects the ecology of animals in a different way.

 One of them is "Wild Blast." It adds the action of baring ones fangs, to take special forms through various methods such as the animal's fighting instinct and camouflage.



 — How do you decide on which animal motifs to use?

 Tokuyama: It's a bit strange to call it marketing, but I always look into popular ones. Also, even though it's a kit, I try to choose structures for the power units that can be used as much as possible. For example, Triceratops and Stegosaurus. I also pick them based on criteria such as (mechanical) compatibility and bipedalism.

 The difficult ones are pterosaurs and other flying Zoids. They're quite hard to get right, as if they're flying... but in reality, it's hard to use wheels. It's easy to imagine the motifs, ones like you see in a dinosaur picture book, because everyone has the same standards. After that, I think, "What if there was a Zoid like this?" Rather than being completely original, I combine something that's in my head with a gimmick that would make it stand out. I think that's the point of making Zoids. That's why I want to see something of this type that Kaida made. There are some sabre-toothed tigers with manes, various species of panthers, and some with slightly more unusual forms. I think if Kaida were to draw them, he'd create something really interesting. I'd love to make aquatic creatures, but they're also quite difficult to do. You can make cool designs, like sperm whales and coelacanths, but it's hard to make them move on land and still make them look like they're swimming.

Zoids of the Future

 — Zoids is maturing, and new designers are being introduced; what are your hopes and wishes for the future of Zoids?

 Tokuyama: What we must protect what defines them, such as gimmicks that perform actions as toys, being connected by rubber caps, and that they follow rules for the mechanisms. Then there's the motifs. Trends can't be overlooked, such as those in dinosaur encyclopedias. For example, the mimicry of animals or their ecology can be used as a reference for things like Wild Blast. And since they're dinosaurs, there's still a possibility that never-before-known details will be unearthed in the future. I always visit museums and zoos. The moment a motif that matches with a gimmick is found, a series can be made. It's already a traditional art. This kind of thing is also being passed down.



 — Do you have any wishes for the kind of Zoids you'd like to see released?

 Tokuyama: My wish is not so much a wish, but something that's already in the works: the "Zero Grizis" that I drew here. In the world setting, there's a star system called the Zoids Zone. The focus is on Planet Zoid and the earth Zoids, and the Zoids Zone is a great expanse of a world, with a plasma photon belt, the energy of the Zoids but also a threat. In order to protect themselves from this threat, the setting is that there are invincible lifeforms like this among the Zoids. In the past, there was the Death Saurer. The Zero Grizis created a wormhole to protect itself, emitting charged particles, and became something like a monster, but three or four invincible lifeforms have been created this time.

 If Kaida has any ideas, he can come up with something extraordinary again. (laughs) Monsters aren't just big. There are various ideas behind them. They may be the closest things to gods.

 I hope that we can find something like that, that connects to the theme of Zoids through the second season of the anime. It's not just about being big. (laughs) I secretly hope I can find something that fits the theme of Kaida's drawings!



 — What do you think, Kaida?

 Kaida: I think the giant dinosaur Zoids are quite good, but I think there's a difference between Zoids and Kaiju. Kaiju designs exist in many different worlds, and when you try to make a strong one, you end up adding horns, lots of spikes, and other obvious parts to it. Moving in that direction is different from Zoids.

 I don't know how to put it, but it's more along the lines of making the machines more powerful, adding gatling guns, etc. This is more like the evolution of real weapons, moving in the direction of strengthening armaments. Maybe adding lots of missile pods. The other direction is making the animals stronger, like getting longer claws. I think both directions will be powerful.

 Especially among animals, there are those that have undergone unique evolution, where certain functions have evolved steadily... like the long necks of giraffes, or the special shapes of giant anteaters. They become stronger, or become specialized by evolving in a natural way, like that of a living organism. Becoming stronger does not necessarily mean becoming spiky. I hope they create Zoids that are an extension of these specializations.

 Tokuyama: That's very helpful. (laughs)


 — This is the last question. I'd like to ask you about this Zoids exhibit. Please tell us about the highlights, taking into account that it'll also be held virtually.

 Tokuyama: When developing Zoids, we place great importance on the kind of world they're in. Back in the original series, there were various things that developed along the way, such as certain gimmicks or eras, but in the case of Zoids, we build a world view and always have concept art like in the movies as a foundation, even for the parts that won't become actual products. This is also a traditional art.

 This time, we'll be highlighting the story of Planet Zoid, the source of imagination for the products of the previous and current seasons of the anime, the concept art, the designs, and the animals that were used as their base, as well as showing off the other side of the story. This will be the reference for the artwork.

 Kaida: I'm on the receiving end of the show. (laughs) From the standpoint of an audience, there are many long-running character series in Japan. Whether it's Godzilla or Kamen Rider, the creators of TV dramas or anime have thought about it a lot and created what they wanted to. If anything, they've persuaded the manufacturers. (laughs) Once every few years, a character that will last for decades is born.

 But Zoids is a manufacturer's character. It's not a series of toys that someone just happened to draw in a manga. I think it's rare for a group of characters from a manufacturer to be so attractive and popular for so long.

 It's no wonder when a group of creators creates popular characters. With Zoids, the manufacturer has done what a group of creators should do. I'd like to know the "story" behind the birth of such a big character. Whether it's Toho, Toei, or Evangelion, there's a fascinating back story.

 It's really interesting to hear the stories of people involved at the time and read summaries of what happened behind the scenes. You can see the stories of real people, the men who create the characters, and the sparkle of people's passion and talent, and I'm sure that was also present in Zoids. I hope that as unique characters, we can get a glimpse into the world where Zoids was born.



 — GoFa, the organizer of this exhibit, is actually celebrating its 25th anniversary this year. The first exhibition was planned by Kaida. Do you have any memories from that time?

 Kaida: I still wonder what GoFa is. (laughs) It's a company with a unique presence. It doesn't just run Gallery Ichi, it has a presence in many places...Ah, congratulations on the 25th anniversary.



 — How about you, Isono?

 Isono: The origins of our company were really Kaida's illustrations. At the time, he drew pictures ranging from Ultraman to Godzilla and Gamera for the art book "Kaiju Gallery" (*5). This exhibition started from Takara Tomy's desire to know the origins of Zoids and to raise awareness of the wonderful artist, Tokuyama. Our mission was to visualize that as much as possible and have our customers see it, too. In the midst of this, Kaida, despite his busy schedule, said that if that was the case, he would participate as a guest artist and draw a Zoid. The reason we named it "The Source" is because it's a place where various origins intersect (albeit a little self-promotional).

 It goes without saying that people who come to the venue will be able to see it, but the new attempt is to have people from all over the country view it in a live-action virtual gallery/museum. This may also become a new starting point.

 — Thank you so much for your time today.

Notes

*5 Kaiju Gallery: Written by Yuji Kaida Media Works (1995)

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